Host: Dear audience friends, welcome to this episode of Heart to Heart Talk. I am Ye Zhuang, the host of Heart to Heart Talk. The core purpose of our program is to find the intersection of psychology and life. When talking about this topic, we have to mention a book, which is called Psychology and Life, Its author is the famous psychologist Philip Zimbardo. This issue of Heart to Heart Talk is very lucky to invite the translator of many books of Philip Zimbardo in China and the famous psychologist Mr. Xu Zhuo. Hello, Mr. Xu!
Guest: Hello Ye Zhuang, everyone.
Host: Mr. Xu, I don't know if you remember. When we met for the first time, I think you could remember. It was this April that there was a meeting. Mr. Philip Zimbardo came to the meeting. You followed the one in front to translate. I was the host of the meeting. At that time, I felt very sad. The old man was 83 years old, and people were sitting here, I remember the old man very clearly. There is a chair at the left back of the old man. He is sitting there. That means that every time I see the old man walking here and there in China, you will accompany him around. At first sight, you will be a great confidant. What does the old man mean to you? What kind of relationship?
Guest: Actually, we worked together once in the United States to teach a high-end enterprise class. At that time, I helped him translate. But this time in China, I started as a contact person with him. Later, I felt that
It can really be said that it is a kind of call, because you also know that he came to China without an assistant at his age.
Host: Oh, the old man didn't bring an assistant?
Guest: Yes, he is alone.
Host: So you played an important role as a liaison and linkman in this process. In this process, you said that you were "inspired" by Mr. Philip Zimbardo. What exactly is it, what characteristics of Philip Zimbardo, or what kind of history inspired you?
Guest: Well, everyone seems to think that a master must be an academic honor and has written countless books, right? This Zimbardo is absolutely qualified. He has taught for more than 50 years and written nearly 60 books. However, there may be some phenomena that you will feel only when you are close to him.
Host: Tell us about it.
Host Ye Zhuang, guest Xu Zhuo Guest: For example, I will help him in this hotel. Don't you want to unpack and take clothes? You know, Zimbardo, what brand of his shirt? The brand of his shirt is KIRKLAND, which must have never been heard of. At the very least, we think it should be BOSS POLO, ARMANI, KIRKLAND, if you go to Costco or Wal Mart in China now, you can buy such a large tube of beans, such as nuts, almonds, and other things. That brand is a very cheap brand. In the United States, such a shirt, It is estimated to be nineteen ninety-five dollars, and then, if the price is reduced, I'm afraid it is only seven or eight dollars.
Host: So the old man in Peking University and Tsinghua University actually wears
Guest: Yes, and in addition, you will see that he is over 80 years old. He has been away from home for five weeks before he came to China this time. He was in Holland, Germany, England, lecturing in France, and then came to China. You think an 83 year old man is very dangerous, because he will tremble when he walks.
Compere: Just finished the operation.
Guest: But he didn't bring an assistant. In fact, the reason is that he may not be able to pay such a high fee. If you want to bring an assistant out for a round trip, you may have to pay tens of thousands of dollars for the whole flight and hotel.
Host: Is money a thing for him?
Guest: Actually, this is what really moved me. You think the old man's age, his economic level, I think, is very average, which is equivalent to the middle class in the United States. He is also a professor. He is not a star type. He said that when I go out to give a lecture, a mouth will cost 50000 or 80000 dollars. So what do you think? People of this age, he has already become famous and respected in the world, Why does he have to take this risk to teach everywhere? He returned from China to the United States for three weeks to rest, and then went to Iran to give lectures.
Host: Why?
Guest: Actually, because he is a real dreamer, he has a dream and a sense of responsibility.
Host: Where does his dream and sense of responsibility fall? What dream, what sense of responsibility?
Guest: Actually, this is also what I would like to recommend to you. If you check TED online, you can check Philip Zimbardo, that is, in English. You will see that he has three TED speeches. In fact, from these books, we can see that his biggest dream is also related to his personal experience, In fact, he thinks that the environment has a great impact on people. In fact, he wants to change the environment to make the world a better world and make people better.
Moderator: We know that one of the most fundamental debates in psychology is to stay in saying whether it is the change of the outside world to people or whether people are born with two factors, including the internal decision to people themselves. His Philip Zimbardo's idea is that the environment will be more decisive to people, right?
Guest: Well, yes, because we can consider his personal background. He is the most knowledgeable person in the academia today. One background is that he has three degrees. He is not only a psychologist, but also has three degrees when he was a undergraduate. One is sociology, one is anthropology, and the other is psychology, But later, when he continued to go up, he learned the model of psychology.
Compere: This is the way.
Guest: Yes, so his knowledge is very deep. When we talked, I was surprised because I was a bit philosophical in psychology, so I read a lot of works of anthropology and philosophy. But when we talked, he not only answered fluently but also saw more than I did, so I felt very different. My intuition at that time, I always thought that you must be a scholar, Because I am a scholar myself. For you, reading is fun after you are born.
Moderator: I started to contact and then insisted on it.
Guest: Yes, but later I learned that Zimbardo was born in a very poor and grass roots family. First of all, he was born in 1933, so he was 83 years old, and soon 84 years old. He had seen Gone with the Wind, the first film of Gone with the Wind and the first film of The Wizard of Oz, when he was 6 years old. But in addition, there was a movie written in the place where he was born. He came from a very poor Italian family. The place where he was born was Bronx, BRONX in New York. There was a movie called A Bronx Tale, which was about the underworld in that place.
Host: Is he a underworld?
Guest: He is not, but his hometown is Sicily.
Compere: That's the underworld.
Guest: Yes.
Host: My hometown is from the Mafia, and it is the same hometown as the Mafia.
Guest: Yes, so you know what he said to me when he talked to me like this. He said that if you read like this, your parents would certainly support you. Then he said that you read good books. He said, do you know how my parents told me when I read, don't read any more.
Compere: Go and practice marksmanship. Your eyes are broken.
Guest, Often they will be held on the ground by the police, thinking that they are problem teenagers who grew up in such an environment. Then, he said that almost all of his relatives are also uneducated. Then, for example, they may take a part-time job, drink beer after returning home, and sometimes beat and scold children, At that time, he said that he realized that if he didn't want to live like this and wanted to go out, the only thing he could do was to be diligent. So he didn't have that environment at that time, no matter what other people did. But in fact, he was very strong and very ambitious to come here to maintain his learning state.
Host: Do you think it is precisely this cognitive orientation that determines the topic he chose when he was 38 years old, that is, the Stanford Prison Experiment, in terms of the impact of the environment on people, including his own and the impact of his childhood environment on himself?
Guest: Actually, I can say that.
Host: In fact, for many beginners majoring in psychology, the "Stanford Prison Experiment" is the first experiment they came into contact with, and the first systematic research they came into contact with. They mainly know that Philip Zimbardo also comes from this experiment, and more people may come from movies, Because this experiment has not been adapted into many movies? In combination with the research of Philip Zimbardo, what kind of significance did he explain at the academic level? Can you explain it to us?
Guest, In fact, the first person was Copernicus.
Host: Oh, heliocentric said.
Guest: Yes, before that, we thought that we enjoyed the universe exclusively in the Garden of Eden, the center of the universe. Copernicus said that your hometown was actually a very plain star stone.
Compere: Around others.
Guest: And it's not a star, because it's very hot, right? You can only be a planet. Then who is the second person? In fact, the second person is Darwin.
Host: Oh, evolution.
Guest: Yes, we always thought that we are the spirit of all things. If you are the spirit, your animal face is only a superficial one.
Moderator: Yes.
Guest: But Darwin told you that we are actually homologous with this bonobo and chimpanzee, that is, your body is not so special. Then who is the third person? The third person is Freud.
Moderator: Psychoanalysis.
Guest: Yes, before that, we always believed that, especially after the Enlightenment, people, like computers, like AlphaGo, are supposed to be, or rather, perfect and better people. They are very precise machines. I think about many things, like Adam Smith's invisible hand. I think about all aspects and make a rational decision, Then even my emotions, emotions, and my values are rational and can be understood by everyone. What does Freud say? Say that we are actually a slave. What kind of slave are we?
Compere: The slave of subconsciousness.
Guest: Subconsciousness, yes, and how did it form? It has its own instinctive drive, its own animal side, and its own family environment. That is to say, we don't know why we do things so often. But, think about it, these surfaces have been stripped away. Our home is not the center of the universe. We are not so different from animals
Compere: There is no essential difference.
Guest: We are not so clear in our minds. There is only a little left. There is only a little left in the human veil. The last piece of fig leaf is left. I am born to be a good man. Zimbardo and Milgram have done two experiments. One is the Stanford prison experiment, and the other is the obedience experiment.
Host: Obey the experiment, and the authority obeys the experiment.
Guest: Yes, what are these two experiments talking about? In fact, we are not so righteous. In fact, we are not so kind. Many times, an authority can make us decide to use lethal electricity to electricity people, but he only said: "No, the experiment must continue". What is more shocking about Zimbardo's experiment? When he launched this experiment, he didn't know how far the experiment would go. Those randomly selected in 36 hours, you know, students from Berkeley and Stanford University should be considered social
Compere: Not bad, elite class, or quasi elite class.
Guest: Besides, he removed some sick people. At first sight, he thought that people of different colors (different types) would turn into demons after 36 hours. They would turn into people who make fun of torture. On the other side, they began to have nervous breakdown, and the funniest parties knew that we were acting.
Compere: Just like this.
Guest: But it is the power of the environment that makes it difficult for you to control yourself. So they lifted the last veil. It is that we are not so kind, so the impact of the environment is very big. So, he saw a problem from it. That is to say, the real master has not only insight but also responsibility. That is, we do not kill or bury, I pointed it out and then I left. I took a sum of money and then I left. His next thought was that since the environment can make people do evil, can the environment also make people do good? So he said that since the prison experiment happened in 36 hours, and was forced to terminate in less than a week, he said from then on, I spent the rest of my life, I must be thinking about how to make the environment better before I have some follow-up research, including you think he is now at his age, and he is risking the risk of his big body
Moderator: Risk.
Guest, But why does he want to make the world a better place.
Moderator: Although he found that the world may have some negative things, he hopes to give the negative impact he can provide.
Guest: Yes.
Host: He has also worked hard, right? I firmly believe that since he gave a lecture, there must be quite a lot of preparation before he gave a lecture. After discovering this, let's say that the Stanford prison experiment is the direction of evil psychology. Then what can he do to discover the last point of these last veils in this kind of humanity? What kind of research does he have?
Guest: So later, he did several things, one of which was the Stanford prison experiment,
He is a jailer, or the contradiction between a guard and a prisoner. He later transferred this experiment to the inner part of the human mind. He said that each of us is like a small prison. There is a jailer in this prison and another is a prisoner. Host: But they are all in our own hearts.
Guest: Yes, and then you can see the wonders of psychology. If you take the same discourse system to Freud, isn't the jailer the superego? In fact, there are two prisoners. One is the id that doesn't care about anything, right? There is also the ego in the middle. With Zimbardo's discourse system, what he is actually talking about is that he started to establish his shy clinic and shy laboratory.
Host: Shy clinic?
Guest: Yes, he is. What is a shy person in his eyes? It is something that others can do. The person dare not do it, or feels very nervous and has strange behavior. In fact, how does he explain it? The prisoner actually wanted to do this, but the jailer was very crazy to suppress it, so the shy man had a deformed prison
Host: The jailer has the upper hand.
Guest: Yes, and abnormal ones have the upper hand, or disproportionately. Then there is another field, which extends to the time psychology he did later, because what did he find? Many times, people decide to do something, and they think that it is useful for me to do it? Can I do this thing to benefit me in the future? Because he still went back to the prison to experiment, and even to the human nature hypothesis behind, he said that in a place as cruel as our Bronx
Host: That's the place.
Guest: Some people can stand out.
Host: For example, he himself.
Guest: Yes, there are still a few people, but most of them just fall into the trap. Then he would think, "Are there some different driving forces behind these people?" He would say, "You think, my parents don't support me to study, but I can study myself. Why?"? Because I think studying can change my future, that is to say, in his later time psychology, I am a future oriented person, I will lose some of the present rewards, I will work hard, but will bring me a better future life.
Compere: That's more forward than others.
Guest: Yes, but he will find that there are other people. Others think that no matter what I do, the future is certain. For example, the fatalist. Some people may have some bad experiences. He will say that my life is no longer bright. What will you do if you look at people in the world like this? If you don't have to be responsible for the future, Then your past is miserable, and your heart is full of anger, and the only thing you may like is the current enjoyment. Then this person may go to drug taking, steal money, and attack, so he will say that what a person thinks about time, the past, the present, and the future determines how he will act.
Host: So time psychology is not the psychology that studies time as it literally means. In fact, time psychology is the psychology that studies a life orientation, as well as the development attitude and insight of the whole life.
Guest: Yes, it's your past, present and how it affects your future.
Moderator: I think it's not easy for the old man. He doesn't mean that I am more refined, more specialized, and more in-depth. I have developed a broader path and direction of discipline research. More importantly, I have finally achieved results. You see, shyness has developed from this evil psychology, Then the concept of time psychology was developed. In addition to these three concepts, what else did the old man think we could do with these psychological research concepts?
Guest: Well, he actually put these ideas into practice later. What did he find later? In fact, he also found a word. Maybe everyone has heard of it, that is, "starting from a doll". He later found out how the concept of time came about. In fact, if I worked hard today, you might have heard of the "marshmallow experience", right? Delayed enjoyment means that he will think whether my actions will make me better in the future, and then he will also find out, for example, people's view of the environment and the situation, these things are not only to see something, but I have to respond to it. It is intelligent, for example, in what subway to save people. These are some examples he often talks about, In fact, these things are not reckless impulses, but need wisdom, and the cultivation of this wisdom is very critical, so he later moved to another direction, that is, his last speech on TED, called Hero imagination project, is a heroic imagination project. His purpose is to make everyone feel that, In fact, I am a bit like that superman, superman, you know, most people dress like this, and then suddenly encounter an accident, it's my turn... Host: Yipao!
Guest: Pa! Everyone is called hero in training, which means that we are all supermen in training, waiting for the right time to show our nature. So his later project was to teach children and adolescents how to be wise in many ways, while at the same time being able to do good deeds.
Compere: Does this good thing refer to heroism, or is it just a little good thing like "Don't do nothing for small things"?
Guest: In fact, what you just said is exactly his key point. Even this time when he came to China, someone gave him a couplet, which actually wrote these words. After I translated it, Zimbardo was very happy.
Compere: Really?
Guest: Because of his Hero imaging project, it actually means that the hero is not so tall. First, it is not a person with supernatural power. Second, it is not a person who has been completely different from others since childhood. I was born a great man. Many British events even include that I am shy but still try to make speeches, Although I am not good at sports, I will still try to play.
Host: So the heroic events include defeating oneself.
Guest: Yes, and it's all small things. So the couplet I mentioned is actually the most classic thing of Confucianism. On the left is "Don't do evil because it is small", and on the right is "Don't do good because it is small". When I translated it to him, he thought that it could be used as his HIP (Hero Imagination Project), One of the project can be said to be a slogan in Chinese.
Host: Oh, really. It seems that the old man didn't come for nothing.
Guest: Yes!
Host: So in fact, the hero is not as grand as people think. Standing on the high ground, he may start from the trivial things of changing himself and others, and then can contribute to the positive turn of a person's entire life course. When I wrote my composition in primary school, the teacher said that we should use the structure of "total points and total points". I think that the old man was also very general. At the beginning, the Stanford prison experiment was a general. After discovering this, he separated the differences, including the research on shyness and time, and finally came to a general conclusion, How do we deal with these problems, how do we deal with them, and then analyze and influence them, so as to further improve them, whether for ourselves or others. Hey, just now you mentioned Philip Zimbardo's speech at TED. One is the Stanford Prison Experiment, the other is the Hero Project, and the other is about what?
Guest: Another is his time psychology. In fact, he has three speeches. The Stanford Prison Experiment and the Hero Project are actually one, because they are talking about from evil to hero
Moderator: The transformation process.
Guest: Yes, the second speech is actually his time psychology on TED. He probably analyzed his book, which is also available in Chinese. The Chinese version is called Zimbardo Time Psychology, and the third speech is actually the top book, the decline of males. What does it actually talk about? It's the age of the Internet, and there are
Host: Does the old man still understand the Internet era?
Guest: Yes!
Host: Ouch, it's really keeping pace with the times!
Guest: Yes, but you know his social psychologist's perspective is different.
Host: Oh, why is it different?
Guest, In fact, I may have said something that people don't like to hear. I'm ringing the alarm bell
Host: OK, stop talking about it. We can leave this topic for later programs. I think we can do one more issue alone, because as a video program spread on the Internet, I think it is necessary to talk about this topic. So the great scientific changes brought by Philip Zimbardo and the in-depth development of psychological research are good, including for me, as a psychologist, and also for you, people who have more in-depth and direct contact with him, I think they have a positive impact, In fact, this is also an important direction of psychology from research to application. I think psychological research should not only focus on data, analysis and experiments to get a result, but also more psychologists should learn the spirit of the old man. What we should do when we find this problem is more important. Then how to implement this responsibility? I think it's a very simple start. Open your mobile phone, open WeChat, follow the official WeChat account of "Daily Talk". Through our official WeChat account, you can push the best and most comprehensive content of "Daily Talk" to you, and study the good intersection of psychology and life in psychology. That's all for today. See you next time.
